On CAFs
I'm normally a guy that users normal fighters in KO Kings and Fight Night. I love the roster, people crying for the UFC roster need to move around, that is not a valid excuse for using CAFS. This roster is stacked at least 6 deep in each division.
I do use CAFS in this game though, and here is my reasoning for it, right or wrong.
The 'special moves' given to the regular fighters in this game are whack. If you use a normal fighter you are limiting yourself in the game. There are no fighters in the game that have a full range of standup special moves (teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand etc) that also have a full ground game. That's pretty dumb right there. Most of the normal fighters don't seem to have more than 5 or 6 special moves total. I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 normal fighters that have the rubber guard. Diaz doesn’t have the rubber guard and you know he uses it. I don't think any of the Gracies open guard take down. Heck, Rua in one weight class has the teep kick and in the other weight class he doesn't. That’s on the developers.
So that’s why I use CAFS.I want a guy with teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand, rubber guard and the open guard take down. Sue me. Yes, they are ‘super CAFs’ but not because of their rating, it’s because of their variety of super moves, so people need to fix that argument too. I go through career with my guys and I want to bring them into the wild. Sue me.
On CC
Ok, this one is tricky. CC users clearly have faster hooks. This appears to just be a factor of the time it takes a TSC use to make the hook motion compared to what a CC has to do. When these are put in combos it is just amplified. There are plenty of ways to defend this (teep, spin kick to body, a well-timed straight counter, parry etc) but it is hard to do for an entire fight. Its like trying to stuff every takedown during a fight, but instead of ending up on your back you end up dead.
I’m also starting to think that CC can parry easier, I don’t know enough about the control scheme to make a firm conclusion on this.
There is also the skill thing some people bring up, whatever.
The reason I don’t use and don’t particularly respect CC users is because I think they are spitting in the developers faces. Buttons were used in all fighting games in the 1980s, 90s and are used by some of the lesser sports companies to this day. One day in there EA decided they were going to revolutionize fight games by moving away from a method developed in the 80s and use the two giant sticks that were on every controller.
They advertised the heck out of it back in the day. It’s the logical progression and EA has worked on this model over several games improving animations, improve responsiveness and the generally refine the stick striking. To this day they are still working on it and FNC will be another step forward in stick striking.
It’s outright disrespectful for CC users to basically tell the developers “we know you put all this time and effort into improving fighting games but we’d rather use the old way, you’re stupid for trying to improve it”.
I can’t get with that, sorry.
The game is amazing, my wish list is probabyl 10 items long for this entire game, I havent had one that short in a long long time. So whatever we think on these issues get over it. Its not changing, so get over it. Make a fight card and have only stick or cc users or only cafs or only normal fighter if you want. Enjoy the damn game.|||
Ok, so I've fought a lot of fights and I've probably lost more fights than anyone else ever. I think that should give me a pretty balanced perspective on things, so please hear me out.
On CAFs
I'm normally a guy that users normal fighters in KO Kings and Fight Night. I love the roster, people crying for the UFC roster need to move around, that is not a valid excuse for using CAFS. This roster is stacked at least 6 deep in each division.
I do use CAFS in this game though, and here is my reasoning for it, right or wrong.
The 'special moves' given to the regular fighters in this game are whack. If you use a normal fighter you are limiting yourself in the game. There are no fighters in the game that have a full range of standup special moves (teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand etc) that also have a full ground game. That's pretty dumb right there. Most of the normal fighters don't seem to have more than 5 or 6 special moves total. I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 normal fighters that have the rubber guard. Diaz doesn’t have the rubber guard and you know he uses it. I don't think any of the Gracies open guard take down. Heck, Rua in one weight class has the teep kick and in the other weight class he doesn't. That’s on the developers.
So that’s why I use CAFS.I want a guy with teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand, rubber guard and the open guard take down. Sue me. Yes, they are ‘super CAFs’ but not because of their rating, it’s because of their variety of super moves, so people need to fix that argument too. I go through career with my guys and I want to bring them into the wild. Sue me.
On CC
Ok, this one is tricky. CC users clearly have faster hooks. This appears to just be a factor of the time it takes a TSC use to make the hook motion compared to what a CC has to do. When these are put in combos it is just amplified. There are plenty of ways to defend this (teep, spin kick to body, a well-timed straight counter, parry etc) but it is hard to do for an entire fight. Its like trying to stuff every takedown during a fight, but instead of ending up on your back you end up dead.
I’m also starting to think that CC can parry easier, I don’t know enough about the control scheme to make a firm conclusion on this.
There is also the skill thing some people bring up, whatever.
The reason I don’t use and don’t particularly respect CC users is because I think they are spitting in the developers faces. Buttons were used in all fighting games in the 1980s, 90s and are used by some of the lesser sports companies to this day. One day in there EA decided they were going to revolutionize fight games by moving away from a method developed in the 80s and use the two giant sticks that were on every controller.
They advertised the heck out of it back in the day. It’s the logical progression and EA has worked on this model over several games improving animations, improve responsiveness and the generally refine the stick striking. To this day they are still working on it and FNC will be another step forward in stick striking.
It’s outright disrespectful for CC users to basically tell the developers “we know you put all this time and effort into improving fighting games but we’d rather use the old way, you’re stupid for trying to improve it”.
I can’t get with that, sorry.
The game is amazing, my wish list is probabyl 10 items long for this entire game, I havent had one that short in a long long time. So whatever we think on these issues get over it. Its not changing, so get over it. Make a fight card and have only stick or cc users or only cafs or only normal fighter if you want. Enjoy the damn game.
I have FNR4, I play it using the sticks, it is fun. But in no way is TSC the logical progression of input for fighting games, it is a gimmick that has been marketed to seem like progress.
If you have a good product, it sells....if you have a mediocre product you spam advertisements selling it as the next big thing.....that is exactly what happened with TSC. It is OK....but it is not progression Not to mention that TSC works better in FNR4 than in EAMMA.
And if TSC truly was progression and the devs believed in it (and not that it is just a marketing gimmick), they would not add CC to the game.
|||CC wasn't initially included in FN4, they DID drop it, so that shows what they though of it. Enough people told the developers they were stupid that they added it back in.
I don't think they transitioned to stick striking as just an advertising gimmic. Thats a little to far fetched.|||I always assumed they wanted the stick controls because their games are closer to simulation then say street fighter or blazeblue etc. Those games NEED buttons because its all about the faster input time, special move fluidity, crazy combos and techs like throw breaking etc. Those style games are based around buttons and it makes sense.
Switching to the stick for boxing was probably an attempt to find a scheme that slowed down the pace since these games are not cartoons of mythical fighting styles but rather real fighters with real styles and attempts at realistic pacing. In that regard I don't blame them for trying the sticks cause your only other option is to manually add a delay to the buttons, which would probably make the striking feel a little disembodied and/or queue based.
I don't think TSC is the evolution of fighting controls, its just a logical take to try and make striking more technical and less volume based since the stick limits movements to its center reset zone and slapping x 10 times in under 3 seconds is probably more than possible.
Seems like that was the idea but people are slow to embrace new things. I could understand if it was streetfighter 4 trying this but for simulation type games, it makes decent sense to try and make it more risky to stick your arms out their and bring the striking inline closer to the sports they represent. Instead of course the CC scheme just undoes any of that and essentially reverts the game back to a arcade style affair.
Marketing is the reason the buttons were added. It was about sales, so the devs likely had absolutely no say to the head honchos about it. Since they can't/didn't balance the schemes (probably because CC felt like crap when delays were added to match TSC) they could of added filters, but because of the population, perception and poor sales, head honchos again likely said no, that cost money and time, the games a flop who cares if its unbalanced, get to work on the next fight night.
|||
Ok, so I've fought a lot of fights and I've probably lost more fights than anyone else ever. I think that should give me a pretty balanced perspective on things, so please hear me out.
On CAFs
I'm normally a guy that users normal fighters in KO Kings and Fight Night. I love the roster, people crying for the UFC roster need to move around, that is not a valid excuse for using CAFS. This roster is stacked at least 6 deep in each division.
I do use CAFS in this game though, and here is my reasoning for it, right or wrong.
The 'special moves' given to the regular fighters in this game are whack. If you use a normal fighter you are limiting yourself in the game. There are no fighters in the game that have a full range of standup special moves (teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand etc) that also have a full ground game. That's pretty dumb right there. Most of the normal fighters don't seem to have more than 5 or 6 special moves total. I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 normal fighters that have the rubber guard. Diaz doesn’t have the rubber guard and you know he uses it. I don't think any of the Gracies open guard take down. Heck, Rua in one weight class has the teep kick and in the other weight class he doesn't. That’s on the developers.
So that’s why I use CAFS.I want a guy with teep, spin kick, superman, spin punch, overhand, rubber guard and the open guard take down. Sue me. Yes, they are ‘super CAFs’ but not because of their rating, it’s because of their variety of super moves, so people need to fix that argument too. I go through career with my guys and I want to bring them into the wild. Sue me.
I don't think anyone needs a special reason to use a feature that the devs promote heavily via their advertisements and live broadcast. The current use of CAF's is WAI. Anyone that really has any questions as to what the devs feel about CAF's just needs to turn on the latest live broadcast, its clear.
On CC
Ok, this one is tricky. CC users clearly have faster hooks. This appears to just be a factor of the time it takes a TSC use to make the hook motion compared to what a CC has to do. When these are put in combos it is just amplified. There are plenty of ways to defend this (teep, spin kick to body, a well-timed straight counter, parry etc) but it is hard to do for an entire fight. Its like trying to stuff every takedown during a fight, but instead of ending up on your back you end up dead.
I’m also starting to think that CC can parry easier, I don’t know enough about the control scheme to make a firm conclusion on this.
There is also the skill thing some people bring up, whatever.
The reason I don’t use and don’t particularly respect CC users is because I think they are spitting in the developers faces. Buttons were used in all fighting games in the 1980s, 90s and are used by some of the lesser sports companies to this day. One day in there EA decided they were going to revolutionize fight games by moving away from a method developed in the 80s and use the two giant sticks that were on every controller.
They advertised the heck out of it back in the day. It’s the logical progression and EA has worked on this model over several games improving animations, improve responsiveness and the generally refine the stick striking. To this day they are still working on it and FNC will be another step forward in stick striking.
It’s outright disrespectful for CC users to basically tell the developers “we know you put all this time and effort into improving fighting games but we’d rather use the old way, you’re stupid for trying to improve it”.
I can’t get with that, sorry.
The game is amazing, my wish list is probabyl 10 items long for this entire game, I havent had one that short in a long long time. So whatever we think on these issues get over it. Its not changing, so get over it. Make a fight card and have only stick or cc users or only cafs or only normal fighter if you want. Enjoy the damn game.
The part I highlighted is very very strange. It appears not to be in line to what EA has stated in public, but perhaps you missed the videos. EA does not see CC users as spitting in their face, thats some stuff people made up to bolster a dead stick walking position. EA goes out of their way in the second video to make sure CC users know, this option is included in their newest product despite the elimination of fine movements for TSC. EA producer videos linked here for your review.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maauJyEVPQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-full-fight-night/708547?type=flv
Being fair I think you would have to retract the spitting in the devs faces comment and you might want to reconsider the entire "respect" issue from a less myopic perspective. YMMV.|||I had to stop reading after the CAF point. How is it dumb that one fighter doesn't have all the special moves? Why should a striker without a ground game in real life have all the stand up moves, plus a triangle choke and leg subs? Why should the best BJJ practitioner in the game have super man punches, flying knees and what not? It's not realistic. Looks like an excuse to gain an unfair advantage to me. Just my two cents, don't hate.|||Can't see That second link asks me to log in to something.|||
I had to stop reading after the CAF point. How is it dumb that one fighter doesn't have all the special moves? Why should a striker without a ground game in real life have all the stand up moves, plus a triangle choke and leg subs? Why should the best BJJ practitioner in the game have super man punches, flying knees and what not? It's not realistic. Looks like an excuse to gain an unfair advantage to me. Just my two cents, don't hate.
You obviously didn't read the entire CAF part either. At least have enough respect to read my entire argument before responding. Thanks.|||
Can't see That second link asks me to log in to something.
Hmm strange its a straight link to the video, no log in required. Here is the you tube one.
|||
Can't see That second link asks me to log in to something.
Hmm strange its a straight link to the video, no log in required. Here is the you tube one.
Seems like that video supports what I said. They spend 1:30 talking about how they are taking analog punching to the next level and then :03 saying 'oh yeah we got those button for you guys too'. In case you didn't know buttons were not in FN4 until they patched it because button users complained. The producers of the game clearly want people to use analog. There is no arguing that. You not using it is disrespecting all of the work the producers put into developing and refining the analog striking.
If they spent as much time working on buttons as they did analog it would have gotten equal time in that promo.|||
Seems like that video supports what I said. They spend 1:30 talking about how they are taking analog punching to the next level and then :03 saying 'oh yeah we got those button for you guys too'. In case you didn't know buttons were not in FN4 until they patched it because button users complained. The producers of the game clearly want people to use analog. There is no arguing that. You not using it is disrespecting all of the work the producers put into developing and refining the analog striking.
If they spent as much time working on buttons as they did analog it would have gotten equal time in that promo.
WOW that some serious creative spin doctoring from the new generation if I have ever seen it. They don't need to spend a ton of time about buttons since like he said they have always been there. Them "having" to add them to FNR4 to service the level of customer base they wanted was the reason they put them back into FNR4, since they were in FNR3 and every other boxing title they have ever made. In other words they were not going to sell as many units without CC period. The bold part is basically you going off the deep end. EA does not feel disrespected by the players using an option they provide, that is crazy spin stuff there by you bro, nothing more.
The point I was making has to do with this old attraction to ultra fine stick movements and how those have been eliminated because of the problems they caused being too challenging for most players to have fun while using. There is no denying that fact.
I saved the part in red for last because this made up story needs to be put to rest for good.
I recently ran across a series of posts in the LB section that caught my eye. Bear with me because in the end this should answer EVERYONE'S questions of how EA really feels about these hot button issues.
Mr. THill sir, I just got the game for Hanukkah and I am worried already. I have been trying to learn things in the career mode. It was slow at first but i'm getting much better. I wanted to build up my guy and take him online and maybe someday be good enough for a live broadcast. I use classic controls. My worry is there seem to be some mean people here that pick on people because they use career fighters or use classic controls.
Me and my Dad watched the live broadcast and everyone was using created fighters but I don't know if they were using classic controls. So I am confused about that if you are not supposed to use created fighters and classic controls online why did EA advertise doing it and why are the people in live broadcast using them if its bad?
Thank you.
This was Stikstyle's response since he was helping the devs with the LB:
Red don't worry about what other people think. Normal Live Broadcasts are CAF only but since we had last min fighters we couldn't ensure they had original cafs to use so we opened it up to stock fighters as well. But you're more than welcome to use your CAF and have fun with him.
Both issues you brought up are hot topics on the forums and among members so the community is really split. But in the end EA put CAF's in the game and EA put both control schemes so feel free to use whatever you want to get enjoyment out of the game. Any other issues feel free to reply in this thread or make a new one and I'm sure I or someone else from the community can help you.
See you both in the cage!
Some might say so what right? Well look at EA_THill's response:
What stikstyle said!
There are certain facts that people need to accept. YMMV.
|||Sorry if my reply was invalid. I'm not gunna read the other 2/3 of a text wall if the first 1/3 is nonsence.|||Thank you UCLANUPE for actually paying attention to the facts that some of us just need to accept and move on. As players there are just things that we need to accept we can not change and accept that no matter what we say will not be changed. CC in this game will not be changed. Now an indicator is something that might be added, but only time will tell.
But as a person who has spent a lot of time in this game and alot of time talking with the Devs I think we need to quit forcing on either style on a player. If they want to play CC so be it. If they want TSC great for you. I also think that the Devs respect my opinion, seeing as how a few of them nominated me as a Game Changer because my time and help for this communtiy, that skilled TSC players actually have an advantage over CC users. The time it takes you to make the motion you never have a move not register in the game. CC users do have to face that fact that we can push buttons faster than the game can respond so we get jumbled combos and counter punchs/kicks if our timing isn't near perfect. Timing is something a TSC user NEVER have to take the time to learn.
Now while you think TSC is revolutionary and the "IDEAL" method for fighting game play about 5 years ago when the Nintendo Wii came out it was revolutionary and "IDEAL" standard for what new age games were going to be. You see where that got them... A system full of basic Ipod apps and a few work out games. The system failed completely when it came to your hardcore games. It just got too complicated and tiring. The Classic Control scheme will always be around as long as we are using console based games. Maybe one day we will all be playing games in a complete virtual world and the CC days will be gone, but until then better get used to them.|||Exactly what stikstyle and Lupe said. TSC users complain that theirs takes more skill. They are right. TSC also is more effective and easier to use once mastered. The people that arent complaining are the GOOD TSC users including fullmetal #1 in the game.|||I have no problem w/ people who want to use buttons....as long as it doesn't give them a speed advantage over TSC. Which, in MMA, it does, especially w/ hook spam.
TSC takes more skill. If I fight against a CC user, it's so much easier to predict what they're going to do...it's like they're a robot with their striking. HOWEVER, they have an advantage in speed, so it's like fighting a super robot :) I *KNOW* what's coming, but I physically can't stop it 100% of the time b/c of the huge advantage they have in their striking speed. Try throwing 4 hooks in a row w/ CC vs. 4 in a row w/ TSC......guaranteed CC will get it done MUCH QUICKER.
Still, almost all CC users are inferior to skilled TSC users when it comes to timing, range, patience, and skill. Not all, but 90%.
As for CAFs.....unless you're using a CAF that has stats lower than the max, ON PURPOSE, it's OP. What no one realizes is that it's not the OVERALL stats that matter, it's the individual stats that do.
For example, in LW I fought a Super CAF who had the same 'overall' stats as Melendez, except he had 91 ground instead of 89. The biggest issue: Many of the stats that are KEY to the fight aren't just '90', they're 95+! His ground speed might 'only' be 88, and his damage is 'only' capped @ the LW maximum....but his TD and TDD and Get Up Ability are 95+. If you can sprawl any takedown, or get up at anytime even when you have less stamina than him and he's in side control, that's cheap as *. Especially when you're a *KICKBOXER*!!!!!!! AND HAVE A TRIANGLE SUB!! AND HAVE 98 CHIN!!!
*SIGH* enough ranting....I have a beef with CAFS for sure, and a beef with CC Spammers.....but really, I don't care that much about CC users, they're putting themselves at a disadvantage IMO (EXCEPT FOR THE HOOK SPAM PART).
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